E14: Jordan Gundersen MH (Part 1)

Develop Confidence Using Herbs to Balance Your Body & Build Health

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Christian Elliot

All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's episode. My guest is Jordan Gundersen. He is a master herbalist, a holistic iridologist and a bestselling author, no less. So we're going to do a whole episode later on iridology because I am endlessly fascinated by it. But today we want to talk basics of herbalism, kind of an herbalism 101. So, Jordan, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yes, thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to talk about this with you.

 

Christian Elliot

Cool. So give us a little bit of your background. What's your story? How did you get into herbalism? Let's start there.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Okay, so my story kind of actually starts with my wife. ⁓ I grew up in kind of a little more alternatively minded household. ⁓ But when I got married, my wife started to have all these health problems when we were first married. And we went in for our first kind of checkup as a newly married couple. And the doctor didn't have very good news for us.

 

My wife was actually diagnosed with 13 different health conditions and he kind of, without saying it, essentially said, you shouldn't expect to live very long. And that was kind of devastating to us. We were like 22, 23 years old and our life was just starting out and we were going, man, what are we supposed to do? Because we, you we wanted to have children and things like that and start a family.

 

And so there, when we were sitting in the doctor's office, we went, okay, we're not going to accept this. We're going to find a different route. And so my wife actually went and got her PhD in nutrition and we started changing our diet and lo and behold, she got better from all those different things. We had blood work about six months after we had changed our diet and it came back completely clean. And so we kind of...

 

went that route and started helping other people change their diet. And about a couple years into starting our own business doing that, I had a couple of experiences that kind of put me back on my heels a little bit because I had a lot of blind spots. We had this idea that, if we just eat well, we won't have problems and we won't need to go to the doctor, know, prevention. But then I shattered my right big toe.

 

Like I just dropped a table on it and it just shattered. And we didn't have health insurance at the time because we were starting our own new business and it actually required surgery. I had a chiropractor friend who did an ultrasound and he said, this looks really bad. You should probably, here's a surgeon that I recommend, go talk to him. And I said, we don't have the money for that. So let's try to find another way. And so.

 

I actually started using some herbs. had an herbalist friend and she gave us some recommendations of friends to do. And I started applying those things and my toe actually healed up in about four weeks. I was able to walk on it again. Didn't have any pains, any lingering issues. ⁓ so I have full mobility on it now. No, no problems there. And after that experience, I was going, okay, there's something to these herbs. this is

 

Kind of cool. I wonder if it could do other things as well. And then about a month or two after my toe was feeling a lot better, I was walking around moving as normally, I got meningitis. It was awful. I thought that I had slept on my neck wrong and I got up in the morning and I was like, oh man, my neck is feeling really sore.

 

and I went to a chiropractor, my chiropractor friend, and he gave me an adjustment, which is actually one of the worst things you can do when you have meningitis.

 

Christian Elliot

Good to know.

 

Jordan Gundersen

And it just got exponentially worse after that adjustment on my neck. And I came home and thought, my goodness, something is really wrong. And so we started looking at symptoms and trying to figure out what it was. And then we determined that it was meningitis. And the option was going to the doctor, get a spinal tap, make sure, then antibiotics, like heavy, heavy antibiotics. And so.

 

I was not in good mental place and my wife was like trying to contact all these naturally minded people and these Facebook groups, you we didn't really know a whole lot at the time. And even all these naturally minded people, all these herbalists were like, go into the emergency room. And we were like, well, that's, it's not really an option for us right now. And this was in 2020, I believe. So most things were shut down anyway.

 

And I just remember starting to lose it like, my gosh, am I going to die? I started to feel my neck just close up. I couldn't even swallow my own saliva without it being excruciating. And so it was really, really difficult to just live. And one thing that I learned about meningitis is that it's not so much the pain because it does have a high fatality rate.

 

but it's more about the mentality aspect of it. Because when you think you're going to die, that's when people just die. And so we found someone, I think it was our herbalist friend again. She talked to some other people that she knew and they had some recommendations. So I started pounding these herbs like crazy. ⁓ Garlic was one of them, yarrow, lobilla, echinacea.

 

All those things, just started pounding into my system. And within about 24 to 48 hours, I was better.

 

And after that experience, I was like, okay, I need to know what to do if something like this happens to one of my family members. I need to have that knowledge so that I can take care of my family. And I kind of had this underlying spiritual push to do that as well. I kind of had this idea that things were not going to be okay in the world. That after March 2020, I knew that the world was never going to be the same.

 

I think a lot of people felt that way as well. And so I needed to have something that was in my own control to be able to take care of my family in case that, you know, the medical system went to where it's going right now.

 

Christian Elliot

Right. Yeah. Right on. What a story. love any story that takes money out of surgeon's pockets. I'm a fan of and then a story of really being forced to find better answers. Sounds like exactly what you did. So tell me what in your mind makes herbalism special compared to other forms of quote unquote medicine.

 

Jordan Gundersen

So in my view, it's the most natural form of medicine. I think a lot of us forget that we are a part of nature and our bodies are designed to receive natural inputs. so that's what I think separates herbalism apart from every other form of medicine. And when I talk about herbalism, I'm talking about using the whole plant.

 

So not an extracted compound from a plant. And this idea goes back to the concept of synergy, right? That the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. But when I talk about that, that doesn't necessarily mean that you use the whole plant, like the flower, the leaf, the root. It just means that you leave the medicinal part of the plant intact and you're not extracting things and then making it super concentrated.

 

because that I think is where you can run into some problems. That's when you start to have side effects. I mean, that's essentially what drugs are. It's about 40 to 50 % of all medicines on the market, all drugs on the market come from plants. But the difference is that they extract the active compounds from those plants and then they really concentrate it and then they give it to people. But when you have just those singular compounds, you're missing the things like

 

the fiber and the other chemicals that help make that one active compound actually work. And so that's why I think herbalism is a lot better for people. ⁓ And that's what makes it so different than many other forms that are out there.

 

Christian Elliot

Well, help me help me think or start getting inside the head of an herbalist or just as a thinker, as somebody who's a consumer in the culture, we as long as humans have been around, we've been using herbs, we've been using medicines and plants and trying to figure things out. And in the West, it's they've taken a backseat to all other forms of medicine. So deconstruct a little bit like there's the traditional use of herbs. But then how did we get to the point where when we have trouble, we just think, OK, I just need to go to the doctor and get a drug. Where where did that?

 

moving away from what had been traditional medicine into this allopathic model. How did that get started?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Well, like you mentioned, there's a long history of the use of verbs. Hippocrates, he's considered the father of medicine, but he was an herbalist. He was what we call, I don't know, you call him like a holistic vitalist. And I'll deconstruct those words. Holistic is someone who looks at the whole. You know, your website is true.

 

Christian Elliot

So weird that we don't do this anymore. It baffles me that we can't look at a whole person anymore. But anyway, keep going.

 

Jordan Gundersen

And so Hippocrates said to look at the symptoms of the patient, their general constitution, are they kind of sanguine, are they languid, do they have a lot of energy, all those things, and then also look at ⁓ their physical symptoms, look at their emotional history, look at what signs are going on inside their eyes, all these different things to help you determine what to do with that person. ⁓

 

Hippocrates would try to treat the person rather than just the symptoms. And I think today conventional medicine is based on number one, treating symptoms. There's a symptom, let's get rid of it. So usually it's to either put a band-aid over it and cover it up or to poison it with chemicals and to get rid of it that way. And so the prevalent idea today with the conventional model

 

Christian Elliot

Yeah.

 

Jordan Gundersen

is that the body is breaking down and it's not working, or that there are microbes that come in and invade the system that cause problems and disease. That's what we call an atomist approach. It's very reductive down to, it's this and it's that rather than everything. And that stands in opposition to another couple of ideas which are called vitalism. And that's a concept that

 

The body wants to naturally move towards wellness. And to me, I think that's self-evident. Like when you cut yourself, you don't even have to do anything and your body will start to heal, right? Our bodies, when we're doing things or when our bodies are doing things, they're trying to get us well. But oftentimes we mistake those things as symptoms and that they're bad and we try to cover them up. And so a good herbalist like Hippocrates will try to work

 

Christian Elliot

Yep.

 

Jordan Gundersen

with the body rather than against it. So for example, I think a really good example of this is with a fever. A fever is actually body's way of trying to burn up what's inside and get rid of the problem. But the conventional model is, the fever is the problem. We need to lower the fever. But a good herbalist would actually try to raise the fever, make sure it's wet, get you lots of fluids, lots of herbs that will

 

help to stimulate sweating so that you can sweat it out. I mean, that was the conventional idea, you know, a hundred years ago, but today it's, just take something and get rid of the fever.

 

Christian Elliot

It's so symptom focused. So fantastic. I just wanted people to hear another person besides me talk about how if we get our head around the model that's different and we can start thinking in terms of, these are, there's a treatment focused paradigm or there's a healing paradigm. And the more we move toward healing, the easier and simpler this puzzle gets. So, all right, so help us spare us some wrong turns here, Jordan. So it's a common thing in everyday experience, I suppose. Anybody interested in their health?

 

on a nominal level to read health information and come across some publication that says XYZ herb is fantastic for this, that, or the other condition. And most of the time that leaves us with little or no knowledge of how to effectively use the herb. So what are some common mistakes you see people making when they're attempting to use herbs to better their health and maybe give us some examples. I think of herbs and I'm like, how much value am I actually getting out of this tea bag or out of this

 

random supplement bottle for St. John's wort or garlic or ginkgo or whatever you find at the store. Help me get my head around how to start thinking about using herbs so that I can start from a better place.

 

Jordan Gundersen

That's a great question. So most of the supplements that you get online or at stores, unfortunately, they're going to be garbage. Recently saw a study that showed about 40 to 50 % of supplements that were tested from Amazon didn't have, they either didn't have the herb that it stated or it had a bunch of other things that were in it that it didn't stay in the bottle. ⁓

 

A lot of this stuff is just garbage. ⁓ And even then, when you do find something, oftentimes they'll have fillers. They often use brown rice ⁓ powder to kind of just fill it up so they can break down the costs. And they're just giving you something that's not going to make a difference. And I've had that experience where I have purchased some kind of herbal supplement. needed something really quick. I made a purchase. I started to use it and I went...

 

This is garbage. Like this isn't even doing anything and I could tell. And so one thing that you have to be wary of is where you're getting your herbs, ⁓ what is in them. Oftentimes a lot of supplements will have a bunch of, like I mentioned, fillers. They'll also have a bunch of preservatives and a bunch of things that I believe shouldn't go in the body. I'm kind of a naturalist. I just want to put natural things in my body. None of these compounds and preservatives.

 

That's just me. And so when I'm looking for herbs, I'm looking for a reputable company. I'm also looking for someone local. you can find some farmers markets are great places to find people who grow their own herbs, who don't use pesticides, chemicals and things like that. Or if you can grow your own, that's ideal. Not everybody can do that though. Most towns will have a

 

Christian Elliot

possible,

 

Jordan Gundersen

local health food store where they'll have herbs. And if you can buy in bulk, they'll often have little two ounce bags, four ounce bags, and maybe even bigger. That's the way that I would go if I needed to, you if I was new to this and I wanted to start using herbs, I would start by just getting bulk bags of herbs and kind of building ⁓ my own little medicine cabinet. That's actually what I did for myself. And

 

A good way to start testing things out with yourself is just to start making tea. That's really, in my opinion, the best way to take an herb because the heat and the water will help bring out those medicinal compounds into the water. And it's just one teaspoon per cup of water. That's kind of a standard mild dosage of an herb. And you can do that two to three times a day. So two to three cups of tea a day.

 

or can double it up and make it a little bit stronger if you need something that's a little stronger.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay, so what then, what's your kind of personal rhythm with using herbs for your family or your lifestyle? How does that fit into just the normal, this is part of our health rhythms?

 

Jordan Gundersen

So what we'll usually do, my wife and I will make tea for ourselves, something that we're working on, we need support with, whether that's our liver, our adrenals, whatever the case may be. And for our kids, we'll often do a similar thing. We'll try to get them tea, so just so that they're used to it. And they're pretty good about it now. But what we'll also do is I'll make some extracts where I get

 

some herbs, put them in like a mason jar and fill it up half with water and then half with vegetable glycerin and leave it for a couple of weeks, shake it up every day. And that's just like a good folk tincture. I fill up the mason jar about a fourth to a third of the way full of herbs. And that's just an easy way to make a little tincture. And then you put it, strain it out, put it a little dropper bottle, and then you can just give that to kids.

 

throughout the day, months, whatever. And that makes it taste a little bit better with the vegetable glycerin. It's pretty sweet. And so my kids are better about taking herbs that way. It's really easy to give it to them rather than having to make tea every day, maybe multiple times a day. So that's usually what we do.

 

Christian Elliot

Right on. OK, so when you're then you're working with a client now, you have a business where you help people because you've been trained in herbs. So what kind of things are you asking them? What kind of questions come up to help direct you toward the best herb? Because I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the listener saying, OK, I have so many different things I've heard about random herbs and, you know, there's countless number of plants. How do I start narrowing what I might use? What are the questions that you use to start getting in the ballpark of? OK, let's start here.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Very first, I wanna know how many bowel movements a person is having each day. Sounds kinda funny, ⁓ but yeah, I talk about that a lot with people is what are your bowel movements like? What kind of sleep are you getting? ⁓ What are your top three issues that you're dealing with right now? ⁓ What kind of medical history do you have? Have you been diagnosed with any diseases in the past?

 

Christian Elliot

There you

 

Jordan Gundersen

⁓ Have you had any head trauma? That's a huge one that a lot of people don't think of.

 

Christian Elliot

I wouldn't have thought of that.

 

Jordan Gundersen

I'm just talking about getting hit in the head with a basketball or soccer ball that can cause head trauma or brain trauma. And so I try to get a ⁓ real big look at everything a person has gone through or they're currently experiencing. And that kind of gives me a good picture of who this person is and what they might respond to and where we need to focus first. Because a lot of times people say,

 

you know, I've got this autoimmune disease and it turns out they aren't eliminating like at all, maybe like once a day or less than that. And that's a huge problem. And so we work on that, getting them to eliminate more often. And a lot of times the problems will go away or they'll start to go.

 

Christian Elliot

Now you're right. We're going to do another episode next people talking about detox specifically. So make sure you check that one out because we're going to get in the weeds a little bit with some of that. But OK, Jordan. So I love it that you're starting with the are you healthy? What systems are working well and are the purging systems open? So let's give me I'll give you maybe three different scenarios and you can kind of zoom in for me on where I might start or help me just develop a little bit of confidence to try this because my wife and I have experimented with it some and.

 

To your point, like, whoa, that was way more profound or easier or saved us a doctor visit just by having the courage to try something. So let's start with an acute challenge, maybe like a cut or a burn or some sort of infection. Where do you, where would you say people start if they're willing to try herbs a little bit?

 

Jordan Gundersen

That's a great place to start actually is with the little things that are acute, maybe not so serious. I actually have an experience that happened earlier this year. I was at home and my wife was out of town with the kids and they were playing with some friends and somebody threw a toy and it hit my son in the nose and he got a massive bloody nose, just like.

 

instantly. And my wife called me in a panic and she's like, what do I do? He's just gushing blood. What do I do? And I said, okay, well, do you have any cayenne, cayenne pepper around? And she said, yeah, I think there's some over here. And she was at a friend's house and they happen to have some, some kind of herbal tincture with some cayenne in it. And I said, okay, give that to him. And I meant to give it to him in his mouth because cayenne will stop bleeding in about 30 seconds.

 

Really? Anyway, externally, internally, Diane is amazing to help stop bleeding. so she gave it to him and he just, I heard him in the background on the phone and he was just screaming and I was like, where did you give it to him? And she's like, oh, I just shot it up his nose. And I was like,

 

And it worked. stopped bleeding in just a few seconds. he screamed for a little bit. It was kind of a shock, but then he calmed down and he was fine. And then he went back to playing and it was just instantaneous. So I don't recommend that for everyone to just shoot some cayenne up your nose, but for things like bleeding, cayenne is great. There have been many times where my wife has cut herself while in the kitchen.

 

Christian Elliot

Dreaming, however, may not have stopped you.

 

Jordan Gundersen

and she just puts some cayenne over it and it stops the bleeding. And then to heal it up, we'll use an herb called comfrey. And comfrey is a great herb to help heal things like burns, cuts, all those kind of abrasions. And that's basically what we do for those kind of acute things. Comfrey and cayenne, that's basically what we use for bleeding and for healing. Things like infection,

 

A really great herb is plantain and you may even have some of that growing in your yard. It looks like a weed. It's like grass, it's green, but it kind of looks weedish. And plantain is actually great for things like infections, bites, stings. There was another time where my son was playing. He was like two years old and he got stung by a bee and it really started to swell up and get real big. And so my wife found some plantain in the grass.

 

and she put it right on the area. She chewed it up, put it on the area, and then she told him to chew some and the swelling went down and it went away.

 

Christian Elliot

Nice. Well, my son just got stung by a yellow jacket on Sunday, a couple of days ago. He's got this, you know, half dollar size purple mark on his skin. But yeah, so I think we're going to be looking for some plantain in the backyard. ⁓ I didn't try that. We did some other things that seem it's not tender, but it sure looks ugly. So fantastic tip. I like it. Yeah.

 

Jordan Gundersen

You

 

can also plantain ointment. They have those commercially available. So if you're in a place where you can't ⁓ just go out and get some in the yard or anything like that, they do have those commercially available. Those are pretty common.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay. Okay. So obviously you can't get too specific with ⁓ any known challenge with a person, but let's talk. So from acute situation, more of a chronic health challenge. So somebody's got autoimmune condition, diabetes, heart disease, any of the, you know, the big heavy hitters. What is a reasonably safe entry point into thinking about how herbs can be part of the solution for that type of situation?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, that's a great question. And I go back to what I mentioned earlier with number one, get the bowels moving. If person is not having consistent regular bowel movements, that's a huge problem. And that's going to be the underlying cause of a lot of those problems. ⁓ And a lot of people say, okay, well, yeah, I have a bowel movement every day. But if you're not having at least one bowel movement per meal that you eat each day, and I don't mean...

 

at the same time that you eat that meal. You eat a meal, then you go have bowel movement. That's not a good thing either, but it should be within 12 to 24 hours that you're having that bowel movement after you eat. That's a sign of constipation. And what's interesting is that they've kind of lowered the amount of bowel movements that you're supposed to have to be considered regular. Back in the day, that was considered regular three to five bowel movements each day.

 

But now they say one to two, yeah, you're regular. But that's just in relation to everyone else, not necessarily how things should be.

 

Christian Elliot

Well, suppose if you're maybe if you're fasting or you have a shorter eating window, does that change the number of them perhaps? Yes, absolutely. Okay. Got okay. Anything besides keep going from bowel movements to what else?

 

Jordan Gundersen

bowel

 

movements, that's a huge part of it. And then you want to get the systems of detoxification working. So the liver and the kidneys, those are the main ones that you want to work on. Because if you don't have toxins being eliminated, they're going to be held up in your body. And that's going to be the big problem. And then from there, once all those pathways are open, so you've got your liver, your kidneys working, you're eliminating through your bowels really well.

 

then you'll want to start cleaning up the bloodstream. And the bloodstream is so important. And there are so many herbs that can help the bloodstream. Really, a lot of herbs do a bunch of things. They help move the bowels. Most herbs help move the bowels. They're also, most herbs are good for coughs. another thing most herbs do is they help the bloodstream.

 

Christian Elliot

Right on. ⁓

 

Jordan Gundersen

Most herbs can help with some of those things.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay. Give me some of your, your top maybe three, five herbs that you would, if you're helping somebody that you default to, let's, let's start here and see where these, where these go.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah. So as far as the bowels are concerned, cascara sagrada is one of the top ones for helping to get the bowels moving. And it's not just like a laxative. actually helps to tone the peristaltic muscles and help them work on their own. So it's not going to be a dependency kind of thing.

 

Christian Elliot

Can you say that again, or does it have a more layman name, do we have, that's the one we'd look for.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, that's the one that you look for, cascara, sagrada. That's one of the top herbs.

 

Christian Elliot

Ascara's the garage. Okay. Okay.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Rhubarb, turkey rhubarb is another good one. That one's pretty mild. ⁓

 

That was another good herb for the bowels. What's another one? Licorice root. That's another really good one. That one's good for children as well. That can help gently move the bowels, get things going. When it comes to the liver and kidneys, milk thistle is probably one of the top ones for the liver. It helps to really bioflow and also help protect and repair the liver. Traditionally, that's what it's been used for.

 

Barberry root is another really good one. For the kidneys, parsley root is my favorite. That one, or just regular parsley if you don't have the root, most people don't. But most people probably do have some parsley on hand, and that can help flush out the kidneys. Juniper berries are another really good one, and Uva Ursi. When it comes to the bloodstream, I really like red clover.

 

Burdock is also really good and Echinacea.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay, so somebody doesn't necessarily have to mix all of those, but they could take one or two of them and make a tea and depending on what they're trying to accomplish, at least get the valves moving. And then if that's working, then you can, you could level up your tea or make a different one. Is that a fair way to make it accessible? Okay, fantastic. Okay, so you may have mentioned this or answered it with a kind of your family's rhythm, but so we've got acute situations, we've got chronic and then think like preventative or maintenance, just keeping the detox pathways open.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yep, absolutely.

 

Christian Elliot

supporting the endocrine system, whatever else. Is there any particular herb you haven't mentioned yet or a ⁓ way to just make this a rhythm?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, there is an herb that I haven't mentioned that I really like that I think is very versatile, and that's an herb called fenugreek. It's an Asian spice. They use it a lot in curries, but fenugreek, they're little seeds, and when you sprout them, it's actually a superfood, so it's really nutritious. But the seeds have so many different uses, and even in

 

of a more research perspective, they've been shown to do all kinds of things. One of the biggest things is they help lower blood sugar. They actually help your body to digest fats better, which plays a role in insulin resistance. And so fenugreek has been shown to do really well to help lower blood sugar levels. So that's really good. But it also helps to support the whole endocrine system in general.

 

It's also a really good woman's herb. So all kinds of female complaints that can be super supportive, super helpful. It's also mildly laxative. It's very soothing on digestion. And I think a study I read a little while ago showed that it was cytotoxic to cancer tumors, at least in rats. And so, yeah, it's super versatile. That's another thing that a lot of herbs do is they're anti-cancer.

 

Christian Elliot

Yeah. Yeah. What I love about what you're explaining, Jordan, is because by not deconstructing the plant, by not plucking out one molecule that we think is the silver bullet in this and trying to concentrate it and go after a symptom in a whack-a-mole type of approach, you're saying leave them intact, use them therapeutically, and just let the body sort out what's going on. But what you're laying out is there's a whole host of body-wide benefits just by letting plants be plants and figuring out how to

 

use them, test them out and kind of get your sea legs underneath you. Did I capture that well?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, absolutely. And I think another part of that too, that I haven't mentioned is that I'm of the belief that herbs are smart. They're intelligent and they combined with our bodies know what to do better than we do just up here. There's a particular herb called Lobelia that has a wide history of use here in America. It's more of an American herb.

 

There was a guy by the name of Samuel Thompson in the early 1800s who came up with what we call the Thompsonian system of medicine. And basically he would puke people with lobelia and then sweat them with cayenne. And in nearly all cases, people would get better. And lobelia is kind of known as an emetic. It'll make you throw up, but it does other things than just that. So it can help relax the nerves.

 

It can help remove obstructions in the body, ⁓ wherever that obstruction may be, not just necessarily the bowels. And I've seen that in my own use with lobelia. So for example, my wife, she can take tons of lobelia, which would make a normal person throw up like me. I'll throw up if I take as much as she does. But when she takes that much, it actually helps move her bowels. And so the herb does different things for the both of us.

 

Christian Elliot

Is that where the term adaptogen comes in? Like where people have, they talk about an herbic and if you need more of this, it gives you more and if you, if you need less of it, it regulates it down. Is that kind of the concept?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, kind of like that. Adaptogens really help your body adapt to stress. That's kind of where that comes from. Okay. And for different people, that's needed in different areas. And so, yeah, that's kind of the idea behind adaptogens that can help your body in certain areas. There's also another ⁓ form or another type of herb called an alterative. It alters the body in some way in some specific system.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay.

 

But it lets the innate intelligence of the human body be the driver of what needs to be regulated. It was just looking for a tool or resource to use to more aptly perform the functions it's capable of. Is that a fair assessment? Nice. Okay. Love it.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Exactly.

 

We take the premise that our bodies are smart and designed to get well. They'll take those living herbs that we give them and then direct it wherever they need to go. And our bodies just innately know that better than we do. And, you know, I think it's kind of prideful and arrogant to think, oh, you know, I'm, going to do this and I'm going to say that the body needs this and it needs to do that.

 

⁓ when we just need to, know, we need to have some knowledge about what these herbs do and what they can do for us. But oftentimes I've used herbs for issues that I didn't think were issues. And they did something, for example, St. John's wort is an herb that you think of for the brain, right? ⁓ for mood, for depression, that's historically what it's been used for. But there was a while ago when my youngest.

 

She was two and she was really irritable and we couldn't figure out why she is so irritable. She was just so on me all the time and we had tried several different things and it wasn't working. And so I was just like, let's just give her some St. John's wort and help her be in better mood. And so we started giving her St. John's wort and she started to have all this mucus come out in her stools. And she started to cough up a lot of mucus and I was going.

 

Christian Elliot

thing.

 

Jordan Gundersen

What is going on? And so I did some research in some old, old herbal books and I found that that was like an old, old use for St. John's wort was to eliminate mucus from the lungs and from the bowels. And so I didn't even think that's what it was going to do. I thought it was just for the mood. But once we cleared that mucus out of her gut, her mood improved.

 

Christian Elliot

Nice. Hopefully you guys are listening to this and going, okay, let me maybe I should try this. You're giving people some courage to step outside of the brown bottle with a white cap around Jordan. like it. So, okay, so if we're talking acute or chronic, give us a realistic timeframe. When someone might begin to see changes in their body, like how I assume like, especially with chronic conditions, some of these herbs need time to build up in the body to produce more of the effects we're going for. So help me set some

 

expectation management for the people that are listening.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, generally speaking, if you're in an acute crisis, you're going to need to use a lot more of an herb than you would think. So for example, when I broke my toe, I had to use a lot and I used a lot externally and internally to get through that acute crisis. But when you're working on something that's a little more chronic, you'll want to do a lower dose over a period of time.

 

So if you're wanting to reverse some kind of autoimmune issue or some kind of lifestyle disease, number one, think diet plays a big part of that. You're gonna need to have a really clean diet to do that. But then also you're gonna have to use herbs and it could be anywhere from a few months to up to a year depending on the nature of the issue. Things like heart disease, that's pretty easy to reverse.

 

You can do that just with diet alone, but having some of those herbs can help speed up that process. And that's kind of the view that I take is diet is what really makes a difference, but herbs can really help speed up the process. But there are also some things that you can't get from just your foods that you do need some things like herbs to help provide certain compounds and phytochemicals to help do the job.

 

Christian Elliot

Right on. Yeah, I like just imagining herbs as part of the solution or helpers. And to your point, if your diet isn't in your favor, you can't out supplement, you can't out herb or out exercise a bad diet, we got to start with a macro of what's coming into the system. And then the herbs can be the what rides on the back and really does the deeper cleaning and lets the body heal. So fantastic. Okay, well, help me we'll kind of start to transition to some wrap up here. So when

 

Someone's potentially looking for an herbalist. What are some questions you would suggest they ask when they're interviewing to see if they found a good practitioner?

 

Jordan Gundersen

You want to ask them about case histories, find out who they've worked with, specifically if they've worked with anyone with your particular issue that you need help with. That will help inform you about whether they know anything about this. I mean, I think that should be number one, the question that you should ask. ⁓ I'd also look for other things that they've done, not just in

 

working with people, do they have a good presence ⁓ online? Have they done any kind of speaking? Those are some things that you might want to look for. Although that's not always the case as to whether or not someone is a good herbalist. One of the best herbalists, or a few of the best herbalists that I know of don't really have, or at least for a while, they didn't have any kind of social media presence. They didn't really have a website, but they were so knowledgeable.

 

⁓ and they just didn't really have a ton of stuff out there online and whatnot. So it's not always a good indication of whether or not someone is a good herbalist if they have a presence online because they're usually out in the fields with herbs and educating people about them, cultivating them themselves. ⁓ A good place to look might be at local farmers markets. I've already mentioned that, but that might be a really good place to find somebody.

 

that has knowledge and experience with plants that might be able to help you. And that's something that most people will have access to is to just go and get talking to people in their local community. Cause I guarantee there's gonna be somebody that has that kind of knowledge.

 

Christian Elliot

on. Okay, let me ask the question another way. What kind of questions would an herbalist ask that a conventional medicine doctor might not think to ask? Is there anything you haven't mentioned that's part of a good intake that an herbalist does that would give me the consumer the confidence that they really are looking at me holistically? They really do have questions that are outside the norm that give me hope that they've got some solutions for me.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the big ones that I will usually ask people about and try to get some input on without being too prying into someone's life. They can share what they want. There's no pressure there, but I like to ask about ⁓ emotional things, things of an emotional nature, because I believe that a lot of our problems can start emotionally.

 

Christian Elliot

Yeah.

 

Jordan Gundersen

symptoms can issue or can manifest from an emotional standpoint. And if we're not aware of any of those emotional causes, then we can be chasing things around and around without getting to the issue. lot of times people don't even know that they have emotional problems or they don't even think that that could even be a cause. And so sometimes I'll ask several times like, hey, what's your relationship like with your parents?

 

Christian Elliot

Yeah.

 

Jordan Gundersen

What kind of growing up did you have? Were you in an emotionally abusive environment or were you in an emotionally safe environment? Just some of those kind of surface level things to help gauge where some of these problems might be coming from.

 

Christian Elliot

Yeah, no, can 100 % 1000 % affirm you because that is so what I've found as a health coach is helping look at the whole person you can't rule out the influence the mind and emotions have on the physical system. And if we don't, if we're just trying to think of this as a molecular math equation, and sleuthing what remedies we need in the, you know, plant realm, in this case, we could miss

 

what's actually creating most of the problem. So well done, Jordan. And yes, I would encourage all of you to, if you're looking for some help, be open to those types of questions and have an honest moment with yourself, go to your heart of hearts and just, and reflect on, this part of where some of my challenges might be coming from? And then obviously herbs can be part of that solution. But, ⁓ like Jordan said, learn to think bigger. So fantastic Jordan. Okay. So one, a couple of other questions. So if someone wants to kind of move beyond herbalism one-on-one, like we're talking about here and maybe get into more advanced.

 

Formulations or there's a is there a book or a course or like if somebody's excited about kind of following in your footsteps of learning how to use herbs Where would you direct them?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, that's a great question. So there's, I'll give two recommendations for books that I really like. One for, you know, a little bit simpler. ⁓ It deals with a lot of things that you may have on hand. It's a book called Green Pharmacy by James A. Duke. It's a really good one that a lot of people I think should have on hand at least. That's a really kind of basic overview of herbs for certain situations and scenarios. That's a great one.

 

Christian Elliot

Nice.

 

Jordan Gundersen

A little bit more advanced is a book that I've actually kind of grown to love over the last year or so. I've used it as a reference many times and I've found a lot of really good information and wisdom in it. It's called the Earthwise Herbal Reparatory. It's the definitive practitioner's guide. It's by a guy named Matthew Wood and he's probably one of the foremost experts on herbalism in the world.

 

He has a lot of knowledge of many different traditions and he kind of combines it together. And then he lists out so many different herbs that are helpful in certain health situations.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay, so one last question then for anybody who's developing some confidence to try it and doesn't necessarily want to go to Amazon to buy their herbs or they may not have a farmers market or that kind of come up dry at the farmers market. Is there anywhere you know of that you'd trust to buy some bulk herbs to help people kind of manage their health that way?

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, there's a few different places that I like and you can find a couple brands on Amazon actually. ⁓ star west botanicals is one that I really like. I've tried others and I really like their quality. can vouch for it. I use it personally. ⁓ they have really high quality as it is a little more on the pricier side. And so, they're really good. only buy organic or wild crafted. Wild crafted means that.

 

They just had somebody go out into nature where the herbs are and pick it so there's no chemicals, pesticides, things like that. It's just out there in nature. Star West Botanicals is one. There's another one called Best Botanicals. I think they also have some inventory on Amazon. ⁓ There's another company called Herbco. They have a pretty good selection as well, herbco.com.

 

Christian Elliot

Yeah.

 

Jordan Gundersen

⁓ Mountain rose herbs is another pretty good option and they have a wide variety of herbs as well. So those would probably be the top ones I would recommend. Outside of going to a farmer's market, getting some from somebody who's growing them or growing them yourselves. If you can do either of those, those are the top.

 

Christian Elliot

Or maybe what do you think of like the foraging apps where you can just go out in your local environment and, ⁓ here it is. And you probably couldn't get it any fresher than that. Does that sound like a reasonable, any red flags with that approach?

 

Jordan Gundersen

No, not necessarily that sometimes with those kind of plant identifying apps, sometimes they get them wrong. So you do have to be careful about that. It's about, in my experience, it's about 90 % on the spot. But also sometimes when you're out in the mountains, you might not have service and it requires a check to the server, whatever server they have. And you might not have service. You might not be able to ID it right there.

 

Christian Elliot

Okay.

 

Jordan Gundersen

But I would get good at identifying things in your local area first and then going and foraging some of those. One of the easy ones is nettle, stinging nettle. Stinging nettle is actually really, really beneficial for the body. So that might be a good one to identify because if you touch it, it's going to sting you. So maybe gloves, harvest that, go home, dry it. And then you can start using that. That's a really good one. Yeah.

 

Christian Elliot

make a T out of it.

 

Yeah, fantastic. All right. We're just searching your area for a forging group. Somebody's it's so fun to learn by with people who are geeking out on and doing it a long time. So Jordan, you are a wealth of information. So thank you for taking the time today. Tell people where they can find you, how they can follow your work. And we'll wrap it up there.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on, Christian. I really appreciate it. If people want to get to know more of what I do or follow along with what we do, I have a website called healthsaves.org or they can follow me on Instagram. My handle is at the alfalfa mail.

 

Christian Elliot

Clever, I have not heard of the alpha-alpha male, but now it all makes sense, alpha and alpha-alpha. Very good. All right, Jordan, thanks so much. Talk to you soon.

 

Jordan Gundersen

Thank you.